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Religion, God, The Bible, Richard Dawkins and Atheism......what do you think?
the shed wrote
at 6:14 AM, Wednesday September 8, 2010 EDT
Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion is possibly the most misleading and flawed books I have ever come across. He attacks very basic simple and shallow religious beliefs and is in my humble opinion rather a dangerous text. His arguments are extrememly calculated to break down some rather blinkered religious beliefs. Much of religious belief is relatively passive and is based on leaps of faith. This is not what understanding of the Old Testament should be. Many people believe that Science and religion conflict, however, as science and technology advance, a more deeper understanding of the Bible reveals that Science is proving that it is simbiotic with religion.

One of his most common and favourite arguments is that Religion is ridiculous because it believes that humans have only been on the earth since Adam and Eve, which was only just shy of 6000 years ago. Most religious people believe this too, the truth is that there was historically a change in human advancement around that time, as the deeper interpretation of the bible cites that there were humanoid creatures living on earth for thousands of years prior to this. Adam and Eve were the first humanoid beings that God embibed with the essence of a soul (a spark of the almighty). This is the commencement of civilised man, not humankind. This is just one minute example of how Dawkins manipulates religion with his own agenda. Don't get me wrong, I believe Dawkins to be a remarkably intelligent man, but that in itself is his strength in his ability to create and mould specific aspects of religious argument to suit his beliefs.
Another of his arguments is that it's ridiculous to believe that the Universe was created in 6 days. Again the people he takes to task over this issue are always of the religious persuasion who believe in religion with blind faith and leaps of faith. Sadly like the previous point about human inception, most religious people take the 6 days to be literal. However, this is not the case. As the Universe was developing in these early stages, it was, as Science will tell you, going through a process of expansion, whereby "day 1" has been calculated at around 7 Billion years (some of the finest mathematicians and scientists worked this out not me!), and subsequently as the Universe expanded, each "day" became shorter (Day 2 at around 3.5 billion years) the world that was created by God, evolved organically under the blueprint of the "6 days".

Today, we look back in time and we see approximately 15 billion years of history. Looking forward from when the universe is very small - billions of times smaller - the Bible says six days. In truth, they both may be correct. What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning of stable matter, the threshold energy of protons and neutrons (their nucleosynthesis), relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. A dozen physics textbooks all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning and time today is a million million. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. The universe is 15 billion years old as seen from the time-space coordinates that we exist in. How can the 1st day of creation be what we now know as 24 hours? This is based on the earth orbiting the sun.....there was no sun on the 1st day so it is pure folly to believe the 6 days of creation were 6 lots of 24 hours in our modern day understanding.

The best-known atheist of the last 50 years, Professor Antony Flew, made the announcement in a symposium on science and religion, that the discoveries of modern science have led him to accept the existence of God. Flew was joined in the symposium by the organizer, Roy Varghese, Israeli scientist, Gerald Schroeder, and noted Scottish thinker John Haldane. The news was made public. Prof Antony Flew, the world's most famous philosopher of atheism, has become a believer who accepts that there is a supernatural or spiritual force active in this world. This was not due to him "seeing the light" nor did he "find God". This was purely based on intellectual reasoning and scientific investigation.

On another note, I am not a believer in proselytising, which is why I am not trying to judge anyone's beliefs here, just putting another view forward. I actually feel quite the opposite and believe that people should NOT try to make others become religious. There are many roles for people in this world, some of us need to be observant and close to God, some of us have other responsibilities and roles. If you are not religious and do not have a close relationship with God, then you will still have a place in the world to come, the concept of "Eternal Damnation in Hell" is utterly ludicrous. The only expectancy of humans is to be good, honest and humble beings which can be perfectly achieved without religion.

As for morals being inate....well this proposition is fairly simple to disprove. Why is it that issues such as homosexuality or abortion was unacceptable and sinful less than a century ago in the civilised world as it was completely and utterly immoral, yet in the secular world, these opinions have made a complete turn on itself and these issues are now wholeheartedly accepted and are now completely moral choices.....huh? If morals are inate and humans are born with these tools then they must surely be unwavering.....either something is moral or immoral that is the nature of the issue, people change their minds and opinions but morals are a constant.....otherwise the previous now unaccepted morals were "wrong"....meaning any moral or opinion could also be "wrong". Why don't we drop a nuclear bomb on all the poverty stricken nations of the world? It would relieve the world of a great financial strain, and would mean everyone left on the planet would have a much better life and there would be far less pain, suffering, guilt and tragedy in the world.....on the face of it, this plan actually works perfectly, however as we all understand, it is totally immoral and not something any of us could possibly agree with. This is because we fully comprehend what is right and wrong, but this guide for right and wrong was meticulously detailed in the Bible.....prior to this, the world was is a pretty corrupt and immoral state as there was no boundaries or framework of morality to live by.

Basically, whether you are religous or not, morality, kindness and decency are the platforms upon which civilised existence is based, and it's one's actions that defines the individual not beliefs.

Replies 1 - 10 of 14 Next › Last »
YNWA18 wrote
at 6:53 AM, Wednesday September 8, 2010 EDT
wooow..not bored too write this?

how much did i took you to wtrite all this
Fizzicsgirl wrote
at 7:16 AM, Wednesday September 8, 2010 EDT
Richard Dawkins encourages free thinking. He believes that children should be born with their own decision to believe in religion or not. He's not out to spite God. That is not his intention.
For example, as you say,
"the concept of "Eternal Damnation in Hell"" yes it is ridiculous. it doesn't stop fundamentalists telling their children such. How could a child be expected to believe that? It would scare them! It's mental abuse. Richard Dawkins believes that fundamentalists are the ones with the problems, i.e Adolf Hitler. He quoted the bible and in reading it myself, have seen how it portrays the Jewish. Hitler was deluded enough to think he was a "solider of God". That's where the "delusion" part comes into the title of Dawkins' book.

Morals being inate. Well actually scientists have studied animals and in particular monkeys. The ones who are upstanding in their monkey community are the ones who mate most successfully. There is more reading on this and information, but I'm not going to try to sway you, that wouldn't be fair on you. We will have to agree to disagree on this point.
We are all born however with the ability to see right from wrong. You only have to look at people who are brought up without any parents, living on the streets, ask them why they wouldn't do certain things, and they will say "because it is wrong". Yes we all need leading, some peoples consciences are more strong than others, whether they abide by morals or not. Discounting those with mental health and brain problems, where this part of the brain is not working properly, so they have no idea of right and wrong. There's even a centre for right and wrong in the brain!

However, I would never say to a christian or member of any religious faith and say you are "wrong". Because that is "wrong". But I have had numerous religious people come up to me and tell me how wrong I am for being a scientist, how I am destined for hell, how I am evil. Why do people do that?
I wouldn't ever dream of saying such to a religious person. Anyway, threats of hell are pretty stupid to an atheist. I am however, agnostic. I wont say there isn't a God. I wont tell you you're stupid for believing in such. But I will expect you to treat me the way I treat you. Respecting each other's beliefs.
I don't preach and never will preach science. I find preaching to me, and trying to sway me with threats of damnation pretty idiotic.

That said. Shed, this is one of the most intelligent religious posts I have seen. I like how you believe. However, I will agree to disagree with you on the other points aforementioned, because my morals says we should all try and get along. I'm not going to say what I believe in terms of the bible, that is your interpretation of it, and thats yours to keep.
We are all from planet Earth. That makes us the same, religions or no religions.
Two Pines wrote
at 9:03 AM, Wednesday September 8, 2010 EDT
I think you should be here to play the poker game and post your thoughts someplace else!!!This is a game website!!!!!
Flipper .. wrote
at 6:34 PM, Wednesday September 8, 2010 EDT
I couldn't care less about any of this. Just live your life the way you want to.
cottonhead wrote
at 9:46 PM, Wednesday September 8, 2010 EDT
Wow all I can say is there are at least 2 very intelligent people on here & I really liked reading what shed & Fizz had to say. I would really like to meet you both just to get to know you better. I agree with both of you on some things & disagree on others but that's the way it should be........that's life. I would condider myself more spiritual than religios for many different things that have happened in my life & the lives I have seen touched first hand by a higher power that I choose to call God. Whatever your beliefs it all comes down to free will. We all are given that so it's to each his own. To be able to talk to people & discuss these matters without getting upset or agry because one does not believe like the other would be a joy for me. I wished I could meet you both. See yall around the tables & by all means if you have more to say I'm ready to read it.
Xelex wrote
at 6:04 AM, Thursday September 9, 2010 EDT
If major religions all make different claims about some divine revelation then either one is right or they're all wrong.I'm inclined to the latter.
That means I'm likely to avoid people spruiking their religious beliefs in much the same way as I'd avoid gay bars or Tea Party rallies.
I see no reason to respect anyone's religious beliefs...could stretch to "tolerate"...just as I've tolerated Shed's earlier windups
Bartjee wrote
at 12:29 PM, Thursday September 9, 2010 EDT
you dickheads read all this shit!
Johnjo wrote
at 5:29 PM, Thursday September 9, 2010 EDT
I'm not sure I get the point you are trying to make Shed, apart from you're not Dawkins' biggest fan.
I agree with you in the respect that I think he is a bit of a pompous bawbag
but think you are finding that Dawkins' antireligious ideas are conflicting with your own fevered thoughts on the possible existence of a god, religion and social anthropology.

I think Dawkins's gripe is really only with religion not so much with a belief in God. I reckon he is so against religion that his judgement is clouded though. He believes, for example, that a child indoctrinated into a belief system, like Christianity or Islam, is a victim of abuse, as a rational choice to believe in something so specious has been removed due to their age and naivety. I'm not sure how he came up with that idea, if it is merely a theory of his or he has empirical data to back it up. I don't agree with him on this point as I don?t think it?s that black or white.
One of Dawkins's famous quotes is 'good men do good things, bad men do bad things but the only thing that makes good men do bad things is religion'.

Religion has been more commonly used and developed as part of a political system to control the populous in the past. Even Christianity, for example, was cultivated as a philosophical ideology by the Emperor Constantine to deal with the instability caused by overwhelming religious diversity in the Roman empire. Divide and conquer...well Constantine realised if you unify, you could control. I.e. Unify your empire with one all encompassing religion and philosophically iron out all those nasty wrinkles; a change from monotheism to duo, Heaven, hell, Christ and anti Christ. Perfect. Good people go there, bad people go here. Everything good that happens is God?s doing, everything else is the Devils. Sound, contentment, it works, Happy days. Oh yeh ensure the population commits to the lovely new religion with a sword. Nice...
The bottom line is too many systems of belief in your empire/state(political or religious) = massive barneys. Look at India, Ireland, Africa, Glasgow etc etc: If Globalisation is turning the world into a single state its not looking good for us really is it.
Thats the trouble with Dawkins I just think that either he hasn't thought it through or he is so blinkered and subjective by his anti religious beliefs that he is missing the bigger picture. Religion is a very powerful and dangerous political instrument, but its political ideology that has little moral conscience.
Hitler attempts to commit genocide, British Pilots carpet bomb cities, American Pilots napalm villages, drop nuclear devices in Hiroshima & Nagasaki, The Chinese slaughter the Tibetan monks, genocide attempts here and there (we don't here much about them though as there's no oil involved or there?s no political gain to be had) Muslim extremists level the twin towers and that?s just the tip of the political quasi religious iceberg in the so called civilised world in the last 100 years.

In other words swap the word 'religion' for 'political ideology' in Dawkins' quote i.e the only thing that makes good men do bad things is 'political ideology' and it becomes a well rounded truth.

Hey its a cynical world in which everyone is being manipulated in pursuit of the only true gods -wealth and power. If religion is just another weapon that can wielded for political gain and personal views of morality and kindness are rendered moot ? maybe then, as Dawkins said, we are better off without it altogether. Then again if it wasn't religion it'd be something else.

Ideally we should believe whatever the fuck we want to believe in, as long as it is without prejudice, hatred and fear... The trouble is, it?s impossible for humans to hold mutually exclusive beliefs with others without inciting all three. You just have to look at Pastor Terry Jones and his attempted book burning to realise that that?s true.

I agree with you on the whole science and God thing coexisting though Shed. Not a believer myself, even though and contrary to Dawkins' ideas, I was brought up in a fairly strict catholic household but I'm figuring that if someone is telling me I should believe in string theory or the multiverse then believing in a God isn?t such a big leap.

The trouble with this is if you are happy to believe in both, it rapidly becomes clear that if he does exist he?s a complete bastard and we're his unwanted children.





Bettyke wrote
at 3:56 AM, Saturday September 11, 2010 EDT
Not wishing to go into detailed discussion on all topics you raise, I?d still like to point out that bringing up the acceptance of homosexuality by law today (and I?d like to stress law as it is still far from being accepted by many, let alone Church), does not mean our ?morals? are not innate. Homosexuality has been around for as long as human beings. It has been accepted and indeed encouraged throughout many past civilizations, check out ancient Greece and even Rome. It was the Church itself that outlawed it and that is why it became ?unacceptable and sinful? as you put it. It has nothing to do with our innate morals. Many of our laws don?t.
Bettyke wrote
at 4:04 AM, Saturday September 11, 2010 EDT
Oh, yes, and one more simple thing: would you, yourself, not feel a need to help others in need or - in extreme - kill someone if not for the existence of the Bible? Look into yourself and think about it. The answer lies within you.
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